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An asterisk (*) in the text means that a word or words were omitted because they were not understood well enough on the tape to make a guess. Words in brackets ( [ ] ) are my added comments. Indented text is interviewer questions or comments. Both the tape of this interview and the electronic record of the transcript were lost. Fortunately, a hard copy of the transcription was found and is duplicated below. No attempt was made to correct Buddha Charan's charming Thai accent. It seems altogether appropriate. This copy of the interview transcript did not include the question that opened the interview, but a glance at the response makes it likely that it was a simple request to "tell me about the Heaven on Earth restaurant."

BC: The purpose of this building, Heaven on Earth Plaza Hotel or whatever you call it, is that we could bring the knowledge of life, the knowledge of nature or natural law—we call the Vede, which is the totality of knowledge—to the people in the society. That's our main goal. To create heaven on earth means to bring perfection in all levels of life. Perfection's already there in every soul, in every being, in everyone, only that they have to know and remember it and they can live that heaven on earth that's the purpose of life, that's the purpose of living. Life in nature is bliss.
So bliss is not being seen today in this society. That mean some knowledge of life is lacking. Education is not fulfilled. Education means to bring a man to the level that he does not make mistake in life. And that has not been accomplished in present education today, because education today only focus on objective approach, study what is outside of the person. What it needs is to incorporate study of student's life itself— his mind, his consciousness, his own being, his subjective experience. It not has been focused on in education. And when that subjective is part of the education, then that subjective, which is the student itself, learning objective is what is outside of him fulfilled. Because when he know himself, then what he learn from outside a part of him will be related to him. So relationship and the process of knowing and the knowing—those are three things in life.
Total knowledge mean the Vede; pure knowledge means the knower, knowing and known in one brain, a way in one brain. The present knowledge today is total knowledge in the library, but in the tradition that has been educate man on this planet is that total knowledge is in one brain, and that is experience, then every moment that student learn he gain that fulfillment. So we say he's experiencing the fruit of knowledge that he learn. This is what is missing today.
So we bring Vedic university into this town or is going to be in every state in the whole country. The purpose of that is to bring this knowledge to the people. To do that, we have different approaches. One approach is to spiritual aspect of life—to the mind, through the consciousness. The other approach is to the physical—through the body, through the senses. So they create Vedic * university that's totally for the consciousness—spiritual. And then Ayurvede university that's through total—through the senses, through the body aspect. So this restaurant, it's part of the whole approach which is under Maharishi Ayurvede.
There are 20 different approaches, through all the senses. One approach is through diet, which is the most important one. When we see society today, it is not well. Health is not good. Society is disintegrating. Everyone is for themself. It show that the health is not good. Mental health and physical health is imbalanced. That mean life is not accord with the laws of nature. Awareness of the person is not synchronous, is not total, partially function of life, and this is what we show in society when we have so many health problems, so many crime problems, even economy problems, unemployment problems. All this thing is due to because man is not proper educate how to live his life properly according to the laws of nature.
Now diet, what can diet do? This is very important. See what you are is what you eat. So whatever you eat you see in the society today. It's not healthy. Only few little thing that need to incorporate in the present situation of dietary—very few little thing—just to know a few things and then prevention is done. Maharishi Ayurvede in the 20 approaches, all is oriented, prevention oriented, that mean to prevent before it come. Like, for instance, you talk about heart disease. What, 50,000 or 500,000 people die each year? What is the figure? 500,000 or 50,000? I'm not sure.

Interviewer: I don't know. It's very large.

I think half a million die every year of heart attack. Then doctor look at it and say, Oh there's too much fat in the system, cholesterol. So they go after them and they operate. But in Ayurvede we go the prevention level. We don't go through that level the problem, we go few step beyond that. And we see what is the main cause: imbalanced diet, imbalanced lifestyle, lack of knowledge about living. So if we address that * then you can correct it. That's what we call prevention. We just go a few step beyond that and we find that the main cause is not knowing, ignorance. That's the main cause.

Don't you think that people today are more interested in listening because they can no longer afford sickness? It is very expensive to be sick.

Yes. And listening doesn't help. Because we could prevention them and you have to experience every moment—overall well-being, calm mind, alert mind, clear mind—and that's experience. Listening doesn't help, breathing doesn't help. So still the *** go on on this level—reading, listening. They practice from that their own understanding, it could be a mistake also. And then they could create more imbalance. So if you could relate this message to the people and bring them in here and we give them the experience.
This restaurant, Heaven on Earth Restaurant is one aspect to bring people. Here is not just we serving food and charging money. There is so much more we have—experiences through the senses, sense of taste, sense of sight, sense of smell and sense of touch, sense of hearing—could pacify, could bring the balance, could bring balance to the nervous system. That mean you give them a new experience. So this is what this establishment for. Give the new experience, because life is through experience. Everyone live life according to their experiences on a momentary basis. In other words, life based on the notion, on thoughts, that's how one lives. But ideal life, ideal life is to live life beyond thinking. Total reality of awareness, simplest form of awareness, unbounded feeling—that is totality, and that area is already there within everyone—that area of life, of totality of bliss is always there. Just one just have to know how to utilize that.

How did you come to where you are now? When you were a child, were you in the same religious tradition that you're in now?

No. I was brought up with parents who very much material oriented. They teach their children how to be successful by material gain, successful by being powerful, being a leader in society. And that's how we were brought up. And then we working very hard. We study hard, we gain a lot of stress, and we found that every level of success we feel satisfied for a while and then we are looking for new avenue to be more and more successful. There's no end to it. So the question came was that, What is real? What is life? What is really life? If life mean to be successful, you gain that and yet you lost it again. So there's no end to it. So we started to look deep until someone pointed out when they look in the skies, they look at the water, they look at the mountain, they start to appreciate the beauty of that surrounding, which at that time we didn't. We did not really have that appreciation. So we starting to question why—why we cannot see what other people can see. So the answer comes that because you awareness is clouded. It's not clear. Then we have to look for someone who know—guru or teacher. And then when we look for someone who know, who could guide us, who could tell us what is life all about, and then they start to apply certain techniques called Transcendental Meditation techniques.

How old were you when you decided—

I was 23.

At a relatively young age

Yes.

And that was when you began your meditation?

Yes. I start to do meditation. I didn't understand what this meditation really could bring up until now. I only know that I want to be more happy. I want to be more relaxed. I want to understand things more, and that's what it helped. And then just through faith, I just continue on meditating. Everyday seem to have new experience, new life.

But you were still working in the temporal world?

Yes, in the world, want to be ahead, want to gain all the material life. There's nothing wrong with that. Only that life want to live too full—one is material fullness. You know, you can get what you want and be comfortable, but the other is that you want also spiritual fullness. You want to have bliss in your life. You have simplest feeling in your awareness.

What were you doing in your business life when you made the decision that you wanted to go into the religious life?

See, I was trained as hotel manager, then I was in the service industry—hotel, night clubs, restaurant. I still think to have a few millions in the bank is good—even now. But I spend part of the time pursuit to gain enlightenment. Which is that small. [He holds up his hand and brings his index finger and thumb very close to illustrate how small.] That's the highest goal, highest inspiration, so that I could do good things to the others.

It's much easier to pursue enlightenment when your material concerns are taken care of.

Right. You are right. And also society today they will look up at you if you are successful. No one want to follow the poor guy.

Well that's true. I think it was Stuart Wilde that wrote in his books, "What's wrong with being a guru with an ashram who has 26 Rolls Royces?" He said, "I wouldn't dream of following a guru who had less." I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I think I understand his point.

You see, if you are clear, you are awake. I mean you are within the infinite creativity. You do to be success no matter what you do. You goal inspiration will be easily accomplished no matter which goal, is that to be enlightenment or to be millionaire or billionaire or to be an author or to be an actor, whatever. Because from that level you think, you decide. So the basis of successful in life is go within. Just like we build high, tall high rise. The first thing to secure that high rise, to make that high rise successful, you go under, you go underneath the ground. Same thing when you pull, when you shoot the arrow. The philosophy is to get the arrow go out, but the successful of that arrow is based on how far you pull in. This is what in this material world should understand. When people say that they don't have time to sit and close the eye for 20 minutes, that means they're missing out something. I mean that 20 minutes will make them the other 20 hours successful, 24 hours successful. So meditation is a necessity. It's part of life. It's the whole philosophy of life. It's the whole purpose of life—to go within before you go out.

You know, you stated when we had dinner here that you left the business world 15 years ago. And I take it that at that point you accelerated your spiritual search.

Right.

What exactly did you do?

Actually, I do nothing but spend more time to myself.

So you didn't seek teachers.

I found teacher. I found teacher 22 years ago. But teacher doesn't mean a person in the human being form. A teacher is some—that infinite silence itself is a teacher. Nature itself is a teacher. But that nature could be expressed by some human being. When you found him you know. But by knowing you put him in your heart and that's all it takes. Communication is so vague. And word doesn't mean anything on that level. You don't learn by just talking to him. No.

What was your daily life like in this period of your life?

This is a beautiful thing. We just spend more time to ourself. Ourself means silent values of life. Spend time to ourself and do long meditation and live very simple, easy life. No pressure, no stress, no tension, just live life. That's all.

So my strong desire to simply go home in the evening and to be alone is not abnormal or antisocial?

No, no, no, not at all, not at all. Just live a simple life.

How long have you been in Houston and where did you live before?

Houston now since December; it will be four months. And then before that I spend some time in Holland at the Maharishi Ayurvedic University in Holland. And then there I have traveling in Laos, in Burma, in Cambodia. I spend year and a half in Cambodia. Actually this knowledge of Maharishi Vede has really saved the country.

In Cambodia?

Yes. When we were there—you know how bad the country was. The country has totally disintegrated—poor, lack of leadership. People just live without any hope anymore. There's no hope, no leadership. So when we were there we create this hope, confidence. We look after their health—their mental health. We teach people to do meditation, we look after their health through Maharishi Ayurveda system of ancient medicine.

Do you belong to a group? Are you a member of a religious order that is organized to do this or is it something you do on your own?

We went there with the Heaven On Earth corporation. We don't—see, we not belong to any religion. We are not religious preaching. We are not teaching religion. What we do we give. We go there and give them— Most basic needs in life is to be happy.

Who established the Heaven on Earth Corporation?

It's the movement, the movement of Transcendental Meditation throughout the world. Four or five million people in the world now practicing this—has become a movement. And this movement just support us to go to Cambodia and teach this technique and show people how to live a happy life. Then the government starting to support us. The government give us land, and then they collect big group of students who want to study Vedic science. Then we create a university and we teach them a four-years course for degree, which the government is organizing for us. So Cambodia one of the very few countries in the world that has this vision to— And this Cambodia proved to be very successful, and now the country is well taken care of. You know what it means when thousands of people daily travel from excited state of their awareness to least excited state of awareness—within themselves, not from thinking, ***, transcend the thought. That alone just create harmonies in the individual. First you start harmony in that individual, then scientist has proven the brain wave starting to organize in such a orderly and coherent way. And that few thousand people do that on a daily basis, then they come out—their behavior, their activity become naturally supporting the environment. And then they create a new environment for the whole nation.

So the Heaven On Earth Corporation is interested in doing this throughout the world?

Right, right.

So you find key places that you feel like need this work and people will be receptive to it?

Right, right. Like this building. If you can bring in 500, 600 young ones or elderly, retired ones or whoever interested just to be with us, and Houston downtown will be nourished and flourish. This will be the easiest and most cost effective approach. That's all you have to do because you need better environment in downtown Houston or the Hilton as a whole city. You need a better environment so when that is happened and nature itself will nourish and assure—will bring whatever man desire, will furnish, will support. If they start thinking bringing casino here that is not only damage life but it will bring a very stressful environment here. I'm saying this because I think the mayor is a wise man. He would not do it. But the people might force him to do it, you know.

I thought he was supporting it.

Because the people want it.

Well it has to do with money.

Because the building money is the only thing in life and they make—

Well they want the money to provide the city services, and you know the lottery has been successful in raising money so they look more to the gambling. You know, I remember when they first had a sales tax in Texas, in the 1970s I think it was, maybe it was early 1980s—

See, they're not touching at the core of the problem. They create more problem.

When we first got our sales tax, Houston was the richest city in the country. It was the only major city that had a surplus in their budget. And this lasted for many years, then suddenly the money went away. Now they're looking for another fix like that. And it just goes—everything that's happening now demands more and more and more money and that's why I think people are looking like you're looking to prevent sickness because you can't afford sickness anymore. Sickness has become very, very, very expensive.

Failure. Total failure. You know, and this system here, in the health system here in America it's so * and it spread out to all over the world and everyone is copying it. They must be thinking of prevention. They go to few step deeper than that reality of physical health because up until now already they prove that it doesn't work. They must giving us a chance to prove that our method, our approach will work.

So are you in any way officially connected with the Heaven On Earth Corporation, or do you work in the nature of a volunteer?

See I'm part of the whole. The moment I started to meditate, I'm part of the whole that create Heaven on Earth, no matter where I go, what I do, because if I spend morning and evening to myself meditating, I'm contributing something to the world. So on that level I'm very official. But on the other level, I'm here to just help. I'm here to help. I'm on my volunteer time. I come here because I want to do good to the country, to the society. That's all. And I wanted to do, I have the time to do.

So you took care of your materialistic needs or your financial needs and that freed you to seek your own spirit.

Yes, yes. Right.

What I'm hearing is that you've spent a period of time where you spent a lot of time alone.

Yes.

And then you started going out?

Yes.

And in a sense spreading the peace.

Yes. That's it.

It's a thing we've been told repeatedly. You have to take care of yourself first. Not because you're selfish, but because if you're unhealthy you can't do anybody any good.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. There's three things in life which is very important. First is health. You must have balanced health because on that basis you live your life. Success or failure depends on how the health is. If you have balanced health, then your thinking is positive. You illusion good thoughts. And vice versa. And then after you have balanced health, then wealth is easy to gain. Wealth is very easy to gain, because you have clear mind, clear thinking, positive thinking, evolutionary thinking. Then the decision you made is right. Always right. So welcome of the health. And when you have these both, then wisdom is automatic.

It's part of the evolution of being alive.

Wisdom is based on perfect health. But health is gained, wisdom is within.

When James Redfield wrote the Celestine Prophecy, he had a utopia in his novel where everyone lived in giant, ancient forests and that the energy from these very old forests contributed to the health of the people and the people contributed to the health of the forest.

Exactly. That's how it goes. If we can create only 500 or 600 healthy persons in this Houston city, it's in downtown, immediately the whole city is in joy—success on all aspects of life, with the economy, with anything.

The other thing that I remember asking him about was that there was nothing in his story that allowed for the possibility of the earth changes. We hear more and more prophecy about earth changes, the cataclysmic changes. And he said that he didn't believe that they were necessary. He said he believed it was in the nature of a warning, that if they do happen, it's to wake us up. And he believes they're preventable simply by raising the awareness.

Yes, exactly.

He said if we're already awake, the earth changes will not take place.

He's right. He's right. Because earthquakes, for instance, is how the nature is crying or unstressing. It's everyone is responsible for that. They live their life, they damage the atmosphere, they ruin the ecology, so the nature just transform. The nature just have to move a little bit.

Because of all our accumulated stress, we need to blow our top.

Right. Right. That's what happen.

That's very interesting.

I watch one school in California. They have earthquake drill for 600 young kids. One kid said, Every time I heard this bell I feel so scared. You see, that's what they do. What they are doing, they bring back the earthquake by just doing that. More fear make the nature shake also.

Well we've got this spiritual movement in Montana that is specializing in digging underground caverns and stocking them with food and books, and after I talked to James Redfield, I said, Well then what they're doing is really against the positive effort no matter how spiritually they do it.

It's a wrong approach. They inviting that disaster by doing that.

So the more people that are prepared for disaster, the more likely it is to happen.

It is. It is. Because they bring the awareness on that level, they create that awareness on that level. See, one after the other, they forgot the AIDS. First they have the thing about the heart, and then now they go into AIDS, and now for a while they forgot about the AIDS. Now everyone talk about earthquakes. And on television all day everyone just go— television for housewives or for whoever in the afternoon, four or five different programs, they go up there and they scream at each other, they get very upset. They put people together to be really upset to each other. What is that going to do to the society, to the real world?

I think some of that was healthy to a certain extent, but all of the things— when we make our changes, it's the next step, and in that sense it's healthy, but it's as if we don't let go of it soon enough.

Right.

We don't let go of that stage soon enough to go to the next stage.

The purpose is good. The purpose is good, but the approach is so damaging.

They're doing a lot of things now on these talk shows about prisons and the fact that when people go to prison they're not learning anything that will keep them out of prison. There was one this morning and the man is a rapist and he's in prison for the third time. And he can't get psychiatric help. The prison system refuses to give it to him.

He go there third time because he feel this is part of his home and this is easy for him, you know. He cannot survive outside. Inside he feels safe and easy for him.

He has a psychosexual disturbance, they said. And he said that for various reasons he becomes violent with women and it has to do with violence that happened to him as a little child, and he doesn't trust himself and he's now 30 and he had his first experience when he was 21. He was being released from prison and he wrote a letter to the newspaper and begged for help. He said I can't guarantee I won't do it again. I'm not alright. So he went out and he did it again, so they put him back in prison and he wrote some more letters to lots of people saying, "Please give me some help. I know I'm not alright. I'm still having these violent visions and I need help getting over this." So they let him out and he did it again. So now he's in prison again, and he'll get out in seven years and he still can't get help.

So trace back through his life to his young age. The whole fault, the whole cause is the parents. And then go deep inside, go more a few step, why the parents is wrong? Education. Environment. The whole thing is back to education. Education is not doing justice. It's doing violent. Just education and they will change.

Well our education is centered on accomplishing certain written goals that have nothing to do with the happiness of the human being.

Right. Education today just take one away from one's own nature. One's own self. One's own nature.

Well if you designed a school system, what would it look like and when would a child start going to school?

This is a beautiful question here. If I start a school— I've seen a very inspiring school and I've lived in that school for four years. I see a child coming in at the age of eight years old. Child should not go and learn something from someone else before he's eight. Because if you send him to kindergarten school at the age of three or four, he's going to learn all these thing from his friends or his teacher. And then everything is so new to him. He's just pick it up without knowing it, the environment itself, because his nervous system is very tender. If there's any stress there, he'll pick it up from— If the parent, if the school teacher have problems that are personal, personal problem, he picks it up. So he's not learning from his parents.
That young child, all he want to learn is what it love is, what it care is. That's all he need to learn at that young age. And he can get that from his mother. And then when he is after five or six, then he can learn a few years with his father—reasoning thing, reasoning, intellectual. And then when he is eight, he be able to take care of himself and he should not be with his parents. He should learn from his teacher who knows abut life, teacher who's kind, who understands life, teacher who really mold him to become perfect man when he's twenty years old. Here from eight to twenty, he should not learn all that's what on television, what's in newspaper, what other people think. No, he just learn how, what I am, who I am, to be happy and stay in environment all the children doing the same thing—rigid timetable—time to get up with nature, time to take food when you are hungry, time to study and time to bed—rigid. When he stay with his guru, he only do what guru wants. He doesn't do what he wants. Discipline in his life. Now you give him that which is bringing him total self sufficient, in twelve years when he come out, he is totally free from depending to anyone. I mean he's come out, become a leader, only giving.

What do you think about —Well, so many people are concerned now about the young man in Shanghai is going to be caned.

What?

The young man in Shanghai that's going to be caned for spray painting cars.

I don't get it. Say it again.

Well it's an American, an American teenager and, it's not Shanghai it's Singapore— He's in a foreign country and they have very strict laws and he goes out and does something that is illegal in every country in the world. He vandalizes peoples' cars, spray paints them. And he is arrested and he goes to court in this foreign country, and they put him in jail, and they sentence him to be caned with six strokes.

What is cane?

It's a big cane and they hit him.

Beat him.

Yeah.

So, you're asking what do I think?

Yes. What is a better way?

To help him. First thing is to teach him to know himself, to transcend.

So if we have to remove people from society because they are dangerous, they will hurt people, then we should be in the prisons teaching first Transcendental Meditation.

Right. Right. And then put them in an environment so that there's some love and care. And itself will transform him. This society here, everyone is on himself. They don't have that anymore—love and care, you know. I wouldn't say not anyone, but some so, but you see many of those and this is what separate everyone and everyone just live for himself. And they so dependable, they so afraid to be let out. They are afraid not to have enough to eat. They are afraid of everything. So education train them to be so independent—no, so dependent, so dependent. You have to train them to be totally independent. And that's independent only— I see young boys trained like this, not even twelve years [old], but after four years, you know he's twelve or thirteen, he walk on the street or he go out in the world feel totally comfortable and free, free of fear whatsoever. He so in tune with nature, he knows that nature will provide him when times come for everything that he needs. He so much with nature. After all we know that everything that create in this world, in this universe—food, for instance—it's all by nature. It's all by nature. It's abundant. Nature always give you enough no matter if the population is double in this world. Nature will provide it, because nature is responsible. Very responsible. But because man is not trained to be part of total with nature, that's why man is trying to gain based on fear, try to control based on fear. The whole administration is based on fear. The whole system is based on fear. All this introducing law and order and all this thing based on fear. From that base the whole thing is strained. It doesn't work.

Every time we get a new system, then there grows a new system to learn how to work around the system.

Right. Right.

And then when those abuses become so great, they create another system to watch this system and then new people create new businesses built around getting around this system and it just is endless.

And when there is so much system and so much law and order and then people don't like that. Because nature, they want to be free by nature. They don't want to be controlled. And when they don't like it, it create a lot of friction in this society.

Well tell me about how the hotel came about here.

We need a group to provide this coherence in society, to provide atmosphere which is conducive to life in the city. You need a group. So to put people in a group, then hotels come up, 600 rooms where we can put 600 people to study and learn to be happy and learn to be healthy. Society will be happy and healthy.

So when people come into the city for business, then they can stay here?

Right.

Are you having seminars that would attract people to all come together at one time, specially scheduled seminars?

Yes. We create now a seminar in course, * courses, one-day courses, four-day courses, one-week course, one month, three months, six months, three years course, like that. We create the courses. And this hotel— If those who doesn't have time would come and spend the night also, we would give them a course. Or those who are not interested in the course but want to be in this environment, they also could come and check in for minimum price.

When I was interviewing Mr. Redfield about his book and I told him about the hotel being here, he said, "That's wonderful, I'll be sure and stay there when I come to Houston." Just the idea of having— So I told him the effect is— I said you have a vegetarian restaurant, you have a positive environment.

Non-smoking, no meat eating in the whole building.

Of course, his whole belief is built around the energy systems and the condition of our energy systems and how we project that. So he was very excited.

Who is he?

James Redfield who wrote the book The Celestine Prophecy. Have you read the book yet? It's written like a mystery book. It's not a great work of literature, but it's an exciting enough story that you can read it like a story.

And who is he? James Redfield?

James Redfield. He was a therapist who worked with abused children and disturbed adolescents and their families, and he apparently has had some psychic experiences of some sort that have brought him to this. And he wrote the book and he published it himself and sold 100,000 copies out of his back door in nine months. Strictly from word of mouth. And then a major publisher took it in March, and in less than a month it was Number One on the New York Times Bestseller List. Not even a well written book. And it's totally unimportant that it's not well written.

You have a pen? I'm going to write down.

The story is about a man who goes to Peru.

What is the name of the book?

The Celestine Prophecy.

This is come from *?

Well, what the name came from, in the book there is an ancient manuscript they're looking for, and they believe that it was found at the site of a Celestine Monastery in Peru. And that's where the name came from. But the book has— The old manuscript has nine basic insights into life and the progression of humanity. And people are just relating to it in such a strong way.
When did the hotel open? And it is owned by the Heaven on Earth Corporation?

Yes.

Which is the Transcendental Meditation organization?

Transcendental Meditation, Maharishi Ayurved, Maharishi Ved, Maharishi Vedic. Vedic mean totality, pure knowledge of totality.

And I think there are people who are vegetarians or who prefer eating in vegetarian restaurants but would not be familiar with the Ayurvedic.

Yes. Ayurvedic means science of life. Vedic mean science or knowledge, the Ayur mean life. When we talk about Ayurved, we talk about the knowledge at the primordial state before become a creation. It's the total knowledge then. And then, when it's create. But knowledge is also coming with the creation. Just like if you look at your body, you see the five elements, you see the mind, you see the ego, the intellect. So that eight different complements together create one whole nervous system. But what is beyond that? What is that before the creation create? What junction point of creation of creator? It's the total knowledge of Ayurved. Ayurved. When we talk about Ayurved, we are not talking about just herbs or vegetarian diets, or this and that, but the total knowledge of creator and creation together. The 20 approach of Maharishi Ayurved is to bring the awareness of a person to that *, transcendental reality. Because the knowledge is not on the level of intellect or mind or ego, but it's beyond. It's beyond that. What is beyond we call pure knowledge, the Ved, and that is total. When we learn the Ved, then we lean to become total, to live total reality of life, and that's health. Holistic. Holy. And every man come from that holy area of life. So he always wanted to become that. We always want to have that with him, with his awareness. But somehow education do not direct him to that. So this is the whole problem in this society, in the whole world—because of that, because man doesn't know his own nature, his own existence, his own totality. So he's hanging somewhere here and there and create problem for himself, then he create problem for others in society.

Very good. We're asking a local Ayurvedic physician to write something about Ayurvedic—

About what?

About Ayurvedic.

Ayurved?

Yeah, and he said— Greg was explaining to me that he was trained by some Western doctor here and that he felt that what Dr. Chopra was doing was dilute. So it should be interesting to find out what he considers less dilute.

Dilute. Chopra, he bring the knowledge on the level modern science.

Exactly. And he's reached a lot of people.

But the essence of Ayurved is not— Person who really know Ayurved is the person who is Ayurved himself. Go through the primordial existence like, then he knows Ayurved. On other level is not. You see this point? Because Ayurved you cannot learn from anyone.

I don't think any of it you can. I'm listening and—

You see, Ayurved you cannot learn from books. You cannot learn from a teacher. Ayurved you can train, discipline your life in such a way it become so crystal and pure enough so that you live that values in life. Then you are Ayurved.

Dr. Chopra says first you meditate and second you have a very regular schedule, and then the other things—there are five or six things he lists. But the first of importance, he said, was meditation. The second, of course, was the regular schedule.

That meditation will bring that awareness to that value of life so that what schedules time, then, the body can transform and just maintain that well and keep it for a long time on that levels. So in this sense, in this sense only, Maharishi Ayurved is supreme. The reason why we said Maharishi Ayurved is, like you say, on the level: Ayurved, even India they think, Oh it's material; oh it's herbs; oh it says do and don't here and there. But when we bring Maharishi Ayurved—Maharishi is front of Ayurved—then a new vision, a new understanding, a totality of clear understanding of what it is. This is what the greatest of Maharishi to do that. He bring Chopra, he create Chopra. And then * is what other people think. Still Chopra is doing so much good to the world. 'Cause still, as I say, to know Ayurved—

Well, he's the bridge.

Yeah, the bridge.

The bridge. He speaks to these traditional physicians and they must respect him because he is as good or better than they are in their field.

Right.

So he has achieved excellence in an area they understand, and therefore they listen when he introduces new things. That's very important.

Chopra is good.

And he has a wonderful light about him when he speaks.

You heard him speak?

Yes.

Good speaker.

Yes, he is. Yes, he is.

Intelligent man.

Lovely writer.

Are you a writer?

Yes.

You write some books?

I haven't written any books. I get started and I get distracted and something happens and they don't get finished. The last one I started the diskette disappeared. I started on the computer and it disappeared. I said, God doesn't want me to write that book.

I wish I could write. I want to be a writer. But I cannot write. I could speak alright, but I could not write. Even speaking is not yet— But I want to express how I feel.

I think it's a matter of organizing thought as well as an eloquence of expression. Very few people can express themselves as beautifully as Dr. Chopra does, so the fact that he can be an outstanding physician and all those wonderful things that he does, and in addition to that be a beautiful writer. That's very, very unusual.

But don't you think he also have few other people help him write?

He might have, but he couldn't be that good without his *. There's a grace to it. For one thing, the way the words are written . . . [Here the text of the transcription ends. The interview was essentially complete, and I most likely did not transcribe the brief conversation that followed. I remember Buddha Charan had an appointment and we had to end our conversation to accommodate his schedule.]